Lunchtime Learning Webinar – TM44 & TR19 Compliance Explained

Intro & Welcome

[03:02] Kevin: Hello and welcome to another lunchtime learning webinar from Robinson’s Facilities Services. Got loads of you online, so excited to get into this. I’m your host, Kevin Eyes, and just to say, if you haven’t been on one of our webinars before, make sure you check out the website. There’s quite a number of these before, so you can have a look at the link below. You’ll see previous webinars and a whole load of videos—some really useful stuff on the website that will help you look after your buildings, know what you need to do to stay compliant, and keep everybody safe, healthy, and happy. So do check that out.

So what are we looking at today? Well, we are getting pretty super technical. We are getting into TM44 and TR19 and, like, firstly, what the heck is that? Why is it important? Why do you need to know about it? Why do you need to stay on top of it? Well, don’t ask me; that’s why we’ve got our resident expert here who’s going to be helping us figure out what those things are, why it’s important, and how you can stay compliant. So, let’s without further ado welcome Pier. Hello everybody.

[04:18] Pier: Hi, thank you for having me.

[04:21] Kevin: Yeah, really excited to get into this. So, I know, you know, it’s a pretty dry topic, right? But like most of the things we cover in these webinars, they’re super important. Just because it’s a dry topic doesn’t mean it’s not important. Like most things in life, the drier it is, almost the more important it is because we need to pay attention to it. We don’t want it to fall down the back of the sofa in our minds. And so, I’m really pleased that you’re going to talk us through.

Before we get into that, just while people are coming on—give them a little bit of chance to come aboard—what’s it like with you? Because I don’t know what’s happened to the British summer, it’s looking pretty murky outside here. What’s it like with you?

[05:06] Pier: Yeah, it is kind of the same. It’s just we’re just getting that sweaty heat up here in Newcastle. As you probably can infer from my Geordie accent, I’m not exactly a native, but can’t quite complain to be honest.

[05:27] Kevin: We love the Italian accent. I’m guessing from the name, is that an Italian accent? I say, as of like tomorrow, I am out of here. I’m off to Italy to a wedding next week, so very excited. Haven’t been to Italy for many years.

[05:46] Pier: There you go, you’re going to have some heat to properly complain about next.

[05:48] Kevin: Well, I’ve got myself—I’m a little bit thin on top now—so I bought myself a Panama, so hopefully it won’t be too bad.

[05:57] Pier: Yeah, we share the same haircut. I was thinking before, it’s always a problem. Get yourself a Panama, you’re going to be all right.

[06:06] Kevin: We were joking about this when we were setting up here, going like, “You look very similar to me but without the facial hair.” So, you know, it’s like—you’ve got a very impressive set of facial hair, I don’t think I could quite master that.

But anyway, look, without further ado, why don’t we crack into this? We’ve got loads of people on, got over 30 people online, so thank you so much for watching. Just to kind of rules of the road: we’d love you to ask questions. So do feel free to make comments, questions. The way we do that is we might take one or two during the session, but to respect everybody’s time, we’ll probably leave the bulk of those towards the end. So if you want to ask Pier any questions, we’ll deal with more of those again, but where it makes sense, we’ll bring them in during the session.

What are TM44 and TR19?

[06:57] Kevin: Okay, so Pier, well, why don’t we kick off with: what are TM44 and TR19? Like, why do they matter for commercial buildings?

[07:07] Pier: Well, for two different reasons. TM44s are inspections of the air conditioning system. TR19 instead are interventions aimed at cleaning either grease extract systems or ventilation systems.

The first topic we’re going to talk about today is specifically related to air conditioning. Now, TM44 inspections were introduced in 2007, and they started to be enforced in 2011 as part of all those energy performance and building regulations that fall within the EPBD (Energy Performance of Buildings Directive) umbrella—a series of directives aimed at improving the energy performance of buildings.

Why looking specifically at air conditioning? That is because air conditioning is obviously one of those systems that are more energy-demanding. They consume the most energy in all sorts of different types of facilities. As a consequence, this type of inspection has been introduced to make sure that the systems are running as efficiently as possible. The regulations then dictate several aspects we’ll cover further down the line.

For TR19 instead, we are more looking at a type of intervention which is more physical and has to do with reducing fire risk and improving the quality of the air circulating in a building. So while TM44s look at air conditioning, TR19 prevalently might look at ventilation systems in your hospitality type of buildings (restaurants, pubs) and large ventilation systems in large buildings like hospitals, for instance, which might have a serious need for cleaning of debris or dusts that can compromise the quality of the air that is circulating in the building.

[09:44] Kevin: So one’s primarily about sort of how well is the system working from a green credentials point of view, efficiency point of view, and the other, like you say, is more about physical what’s actually going on in the ductwork itself rather than just looking at a dial or something like that.

[10:04] Pier: Yeah, yeah. And in the case of TR19, really it’s—while we might joke about the fact that this might be a kind of dry topic, these are all those facilities management details that take place behind the scenes and allow the machine to run. They allow the building to function properly, they allow people to be safe.

[10:32] Kevin: It’s kind of one of those because, literally, it’s inside you can’t see it. So it’s one of those kind of hidden risks—health risks, you know, health and fire risk. Literally can’t see it, it’s not obvious. It might be super well cleaned on the outside, and inside it’s kind of disgusting. And by the way, we do have some photos, and this is one of those—if you’re eating your lunch, I will warn you, but there is a moment you need to look away if you’re eating your lunch so, you know, it can be a bit grim.

Deep Dive into TM44 Compliance & Reports

[11:01] Kevin: So, well, for a TM44 inspection, like, what is that and when would you need one?

[11:11] Pier: Okay, not all the buildings with air conditioning require a TM44. To meet the legal requirement, a system needs to total 12 kilowatts of output or above. Just as a point of reference, this equals two or three small wall-hanging cassettes or a multi-split. I’m going to try and not get too technical, but very small systems luckily do not require TM44s.

[11:49] Kevin: So a small office isn’t going to trigger that?

[11:51] Pier: Yes, this is a topic that we might reconnect to later when we speak about multi-occupancy buildings and where the responsibility lies with the TM44s.

Established that the threshold is 12 kilowatts, a system needs to be at least five years old. Now, there’s a bit of detail there because we are often asked by the occupants what the requirements are for systems that have been partially renovated.

[12:37] Kevin: So what do you mean by system? Do you mean like the actual air conditioning unit itself or the ductwork, or you know?

[12:41] Pier: No, I mean the actual air conditioning unit itself. There might be a point to highlight here: TM44 inspections interest the entirety of the building. So for the regulation, an air conditioning system is every AC unit installed on a building. And the word “installed” is important because all portable units can be disregarded; they don’t qualify for TM44s.

But what I was trying to say is that if you have 10 systems and those systems have been installed five years ago, you need to obtain a TM44 to be compliant with legislation. If you have among those 10 systems just a couple of units installed over the past two years, you still need a TM44 because you have at least one unit that is five years old or older. If instead, you have just inherited a building and you have installed a new system, say three years ago, you still have time. You still have a couple of years before the requirement applies.

[13:53] Kevin: Talking without getting too—you know, I don’t want to go too much, I could imagine going down a little bit of a legal rabbit hole here—but say you’ve got two, you’ve got one system that’s six years old, you install a new system, but they’re not connected, but they’re in the same building. Does that—do you have them like separately, or does that still count as the system?

[14:16] Pier: They still count as the system, and if both combined total 12 kilowatts or above, at that point—at the moment in which we installed the new one—you are technically required to obtain a TM44. It’s important to keep on top of this because there’s fines that apply and, as we will show probably in a couple of minutes, everybody can check on the government register for your compliance status.

[14:50] Kevin: Why don’t we—yeah, good point, why don’t we dive into this and like, what does this look like? So I know you’ve got some examples here. This is kind of an outline, which you’re not going to be able to read on the webinar, but I’m just going to zoom in so you can talk us through a little bit. Don’t worry, by the way, we’re not going to go through this line by line, but we’re just going to give a broad outline. What the heck are we looking at right? So let’s have a look at this. What is this showing us roughly?

[15:16] Pier: Yeah, so this is the output of the system we use to produce TM44 reports. This specific version is a bit of an enhanced version that allows the client to have complete visibility on the energy consumption relative to each individual unit and understand how much, in terms of monetary value, running each individual unit costs them so that they can possibly alter either the way they use them or intervene and speak with their maintenance provider to try and bring that cost down. Now, this first initial page will probably remind you of EPCs (Energy Performance Certificates) or Display Energy Certificates.

[16:07] Kevin: I was going to say, so those ratings that are there…

[16:10] Pier: Yeah, those ratings that are there and in simple, simply visual fashion show the user or the client or the user of the system how well that system is performing. There’s information there on the total area that the systems are serving, which is an element that our assessor, when they visit a site, take good care in collecting and highlighting by taking measurements and looking at the floor plans. But then there’s also the element of the total kilowatts output, which I have highlighted earlier, and as you probably can see there, an estimated cost per annum of running the system.

[17:04] Kevin: I imagine that’s pretty useful, right? So you can get a sense of, what’s this contributing to your overall bill, right?

[17:13] Pier: Yeah. I mean, Kevin, in the end, we all realize that these legislations are in place for a good reason. However, when we are called upon to enforce them—to take care of the relevant steps to be compliant—sometimes they might feel like a tick-box exercise. Adding this type of information to a report that must be done to be compliant gives the client an added value and, possibly in the long run if those suggestions we add to the reports are implemented correctly, they kind of make up for the investment.

[17:58] Kevin: But here we’re seeing like specifically what could you do to improve efficiency, like how much is that going to save you, and you can decide well, is it worth the return? Because it’s an annual saving, you know, that probably needs to go on your prioritized maintenance list, right?

[18:13] Pier: Yeah, and look, there’s no obligation on acting on any of these recommendations. The only legal requirement is to obtain a certificate. These recommendations might be there also for your future budget, okay? So they have a certain value for the client and, as you can see, these figures here they are quite important. They’re quite significant, and they overcome, say, the cost a client needs to face to obtain a certificate. So it’s really a positive, I would say, being able to get into the details on consumption.

[19:06] Kevin: And really easy, really obvious ones like this last one: like, do you have the air con running when there’s nobody in the building, right? Or in that office they’re never in on Fridays, why are we running the air conditioning? It’s like, it’s obvious but kind of not obvious, right?

[19:21] Pier: Yeah, no, it’s not. And most of the initial recommendations are made specifically around the temperature points and the controls, with the idea in mind to optimize, of course, the conditions of the environment versus the possible consumption. Once our assessors go on site and they observe the state of maintenance of the units, take note of their models to be able to input them into our system and obtain these calculations, they also manipulate the controls to see what’s the scope of the system and if there is a full range of availability in terms of what can be done simply by implementing some behavioral changes in the daily use of the system.

[20:15] Kevin: I mean, I imagine that just like that middle one, you’ve got a set point of 19. If it’s measuring out by like two degrees, you’re literally overheating or underheating by two degrees, which makes a huge difference over the year, I’d imagine. Even just little things like that being accurate, right, which I imagine drift.

[20:31] Pier: And of course, this is not an holistic perspective on the energy efficiency of a building. We mentioned EPCs, but we could think about energy audits as well. This could be seen as an energy audit that focuses on the most expensive system to run. And the difference in cost is also substantial, without thinking about the legal requirement of course.

Navigating the Government Register & Fines

[21:02] Kevin: And you also mentioned, just skipping on to this, it’s all obviously broken down as you said, you can break it down by unit. I thought this was quite interesting. I thought I had a sort of slight PTSD, I thought we were going to look at tax here for a sec, but this is not tax. So what are we looking at here?

[21:25] Pier: Look, I might have a PTSD from looking at the screen as well because this is where I spend most of the time when I’m at work. But this is a page of the government website. It’s the government register where all the most important compliance certificates are lodged. Now, on the left-hand side, you can see that there’s a search box. It mainly runs on postcodes, so once a postcode is inputted there, you get a full list of buildings within that postcode that first of all have valid or expired EPCs—that is the first type of certificate you see on the screenshot to the right of the screen. And this, again, you are probably familiar with those if you have purchased a property or even are renting, probably this is something that you look at.

But then the second type of certificate—you see that’s a known retail unit—they had there a TM44 lodged which has expired in 2026. The certificate expired because TM44s are valid only for five years, which I think is an idea that the legislators had rightfully, given the fact that ownership of a unit might change during that period of time, new units might be installed, units might be removed, so the situation might actually change.

[23:14] Kevin: This is not primarily about safety, it’s more about efficiency, so it’s kind of up to you, but it’s not like safety protocols, so we don’t want it—it’s not something we need to do every year.

[23:25] Pier: No. This specific one was done then in June 2021, and it’s up for renewal. It’s probably being worked on as we speak. But yeah, you have two separate links there when it comes to the air conditioning certificate: one is the actual piece of paper that certifies compliance with legislation; the other one is a report which follows a slightly different format compared to the one we have showed you, which is the output of our system. That slightly different format, however, contains very similar information: models, types, and recommendations on how to reduce energy consumption and improve performance on site.

So what I would like to highlight on this is that hiding one’s head in the sand when it comes to TM44s can be a bit risky because everybody can access…

[24:37] Kevin: Anyone can look them up, right?

[24:39] Pier: Yeah, everybody can access the gov register. Everybody can see if the site is compliant or not. Everybody can report to Trading Standards issues of non-compliance. I don’t have horror stories about competitors going and doing that specifically, but TM44s are one of those compliance certificates that if a company is going through an audit of some sort or an ISO accreditation, it will make a difference. We often have last-minute requests prompted by these type of things, without thinking about, of course, the issue of the fines and of the enforcement from the local authorities essentially.

These fines, just as an additional piece of information, at the moment are about £300 per site when the site is found to be non-compliant, with an additional £200 recurring fine on top of the first one that can be applied all the way until the final report is produced to the authorities. There’s talks to increase that fine all the way up to £800 in 2026 to essentially finance a little bit more thorough enforcement from the authorities’ side. So the interest is not only on the side of the professional body of the assessors, but also on the side of the authorities that enforce it.

[26:24] Kevin: I mean, what was interesting to me is—I’ll just show you that—it sort of seemed like from that report, it’s probably like having a good accountant, right? Actually, this thing kind of costs you money to get, but actually, the recommendations should really save you money. It depends how well you’re running it, but if you haven’t looked at it for five years, there’s a good chance there’ll be some recommendations you can put in place that might be able to save you money, right?

[26:57] Pier: Yeah, yeah. And whilst there’s a lot of talks about the idea that one can spend some money as an investment and recoup that money further down the line—and we are used to looking at this sort of dialectical angle as problematic—look, in this case, it’s more akin to going to a friend of yours to have your car checked, and the friend of yours will tell you, “Yeah, it’s fine, go ahead, you can drive it.” Or going through an MOT which might highlight some issues that for you are not really relevant or they might seem a bit too harsh, but in the long run will actually make the difference. That is why this type of legislation has been put in place in the end.

[27:58] Kevin: Well, like you’ve got to do it anyway, but the great thing is that potentially it actually saves you money. So it’s no guarantee, but it might do, right? So that’s a nice sort of silver lining to the thing because you get this sort of value-add when you get the report back.

TR19 Compliance: Cleanliness, Surveys & Food Types

[28:12] Kevin: Okay, so I’m just conscious of time. What about TR19? Like, how does that differ? I know we talked about the physicality, but is there anything else you want to say in terms of the difference between TR19 and TM44 that we haven’t covered already?

[28:30] Pier: Look, if any client or any member of the audience is interested in looking up their compliance status for TM44s, we’ll be happy to do that for them. We just need to take a look at the government register; they can do that themselves. We can advise on the requirement also based on the asset list—this is what we need to look at in order to price the job as well.

When it comes to TR19 instead, ideally, we will need to take a look at the installation documents and drawings. Now, especially when it comes to restaurants or pubs whose ownership goes from one person or one company to another quite often, that type of information is very difficult to find. As a consequence, the best approach for us to understand how to price a job, what type of clean is required, and how many shifts are required to complete the job is sending an operative on-site for a free survey, which will produce a report that provides the client with an idea of the length of the ductwork and its access.

Now, if we are talking about grease extract, which is a bit more complex than ventilation—which can be simply cleaned and then tested afterwards for microbiological debris or potential presence of bacteria—when it comes to grease extract, it’s really important to understand how often a kitchen is used. And it really matters also what type of food is prepared there. You might probably imagine that a place that deals just with sushi might have a ductwork that is substantially cleaner compared to a burger joint. Much less grease extracted, there’s a different type of cooking that takes place. So we take into account all these elements, and as I said, once the report from a site survey comes back, we understand also how long it’s going to take to clean it.

Now, in order to clean a grease extract system—a ductwork—we’ll need to yes, identify its length, but also make sure that we can access all its parts.

The Reality of Grease & Access Panels (TR19 Photos)

[31:30] Kevin: Let’s see what we actually mean by that. So here’s—what are we looking at here? Some filters?

[31:36] Pier: There are simple filters that can be seen just by accessing the kitchen. They are usually exposed, and as you can see in the left-hand side picture, they are the first barrier between the cooking surface and the ductwork, and they can get really, really nasty. For that reason, this is kind of the most external part of the clean, which is still required when it comes to insurance purposes and fire risk. Those debris that you can see on the left-hand side, they can still catch fire essentially, and they will need to be cleaned.

[32:27] Kevin: The great thing about those is you can see them, right? But I guess it gets worse because then you’ve got all this out of sight, out of mind.

[32:37] Pier: See, this is a piece of ductwork that is at an angle. The little window that you can see on the leftmost side is where the filters we’ve seen over the hob kind of thing, yes, they’ve been removed, and this is probably the first bit of the ductwork that our operatives have gone ahead and cleaned. I’m always surprised by the difference in color. When I started working in this field, I often asked my colleagues if there were any differences in light, in filters, in camera angles, but the answer is unfortunately not—that is just grease.

[33:32] Kevin: And look at that. A lot of liquid you’re going to have to use to get that off, right? I’m guessing you don’t use that; you use something a little bit more industrial, but that’s a lot of grease.

[33:41] Pier: Yes, yeah. It’s a specialized series of products that my colleagues use, and there’s also a mechanical component to the clean, which can be probably seen on the right-hand side of the picture. There’s some kind of circular markings on the side of the ductwork. I imagine that is the result of the use of a mechanical cleaner that is required in some instances.

[34:20] Kevin: I’ve got one more, and then if you’re eating lunch for the next one, you need to look away.

[34:25] Pier: Yes, this is a similar situation. It’s probably the other angle from the same access point. On the right-hand side, in this case, though, part of the initial filters have been put back. On the left-hand side, we can see them still removed, and the difference is substantial.

[34:50] Kevin: It’s quite fiddly, isn’t it? It’s actually quite difficult to get into some of those nooks and crannies. I guess it’s a really complex job also on that front.

[34:59] Pier: And I was about to touch on that topic: the topic of access. We are not used to looking at ductwork; we usually tend to hide it behind, hopefully, accessible ceiling tiles. However, access panels to comply with regulations need to be installed every 3 meters within the length of the ductwork. Now, this has been set to allow an operative to reach the inside of the ductwork with their arm on both sides and clean it manually or using a rotary brush in that case. So there might be a need to install additional access panels. You will be surprised by the fact that installers do not take care of that aspect; they simply worry about installing the system and making it accessible for other types of…

[36:11] Kevin: Well, it adds cost, and then the client doesn’t want to pay the cost, and then you realize, “Oh, I’ve got a problem later,” right?

[36:16] Pier: Yeah, yeah. And without getting too much into detail, our quotations are always inclusive of the number of access panels that we envisage might be required following the initial inspection. We provide the client also with a clear drawing of where these panels have been installed and, just like in this picture, we provide clients with before and after pictures to show them that the install of these small access panels has taken place in a clean and neat manner. And that’s part of the job simply required to access the ductwork. Another issue of access might arise when it comes to the risers, so ductwork comes out of the building…

[37:19] Kevin: That’s one more, I think we got one more. Yeah.

[37:22] Pier: So you see that here there’s an access on the right-hand side, and I am not sure if in this case is one of the ones that we installed or it was a pre-existing one. Mind you that this is your typical burger joint that we are looking at, so this is the amount of grease that collects in those ductworks. It’s important to notice that all grease is a fire hazard.

[37:58] Kevin: Yeah, I mean, that’s just—I was just thinking that. I was thinking, “Oh my goodness, you know, like that finds a source of ignition and you’re in trouble,” right?

[38:05] Pier: Yeah, yeah. And without access panels, without means to observe the ductwork, we cannot know even if the clean has been performed properly. One of the problems that we come in and encounter on systems we’ve not worked on before ourselves is that some operatives or some kitchen staff as well, they think that the reach that they have without the installation of additional panels, without the use of a rotary brush, will be enough to clean the ductwork. And there’s a legend that the fire department doesn’t quite like about the fact that fire doesn’t spread if there’s just patches of grease here and there. The truth is that fire spreads even if there are patches that are not clean. So the way to go about doing it is thoroughly: it’s inspecting everything and providing the client with a report that shows them that the job has been carried out properly.

[39:34] Kevin: I don’t know about you, if I’m working in a kitchen, I am not cleaning that out anyway. I’m changing jobs if you’re asking me to do that, that’s disgusting. You know, I don’t have the gear, right?

[39:44] Pier: You know, there’s a lot of kitchen staff that tell us they clean the filters themselves—so that first picture that we showed the audience showing the filters—and that’s it. But unfortunately, as we see, that is just the tip of the iceberg, right?

[40:07] Kevin: This is the bit you need to look away if you’re eating, okay? So you have been warned. So that’s another one, and then, yeah, like that’s the result, right? It’s pretty gross.

[40:19] Pier: Yeah, we dispose then ourselves, of course, of all the debris that we remove, and we leave the site as clean as we found it. This is one of those—a really simple one, but one of those diagrams that show the ductwork geography to clients and give them an idea of where vents have been installed, where access panels have been installed as well. Part of this job is—now on the right-hand side, you see that dark color fire damper. Some of these systems have dampers that are triggered by either temperature or smoke, and one of the things that we do is test them, again, to connect to that idea that this is all the work that takes place behind the scenes. And if it doesn’t take place, systems break down. If you don’t test these systems periodically, you might find that they are not working when they should, and you don’t play with these sort of systems.

Multi-Occupancy Buildings & Responsibility

[41:43] Kevin: Just quick one, I’m just conscious of time. I can’t believe how long we’ve talked about this, this is what you talk about today at work, you know? So, you mentioned it early on, and it’s an issue we find a lot with some of the topics that we talk about. So let’s talk briefly about who’s responsible for both TM44 and TR19 compliance if it’s like a multi-let and managed building, because that’s going to be the situation for a lot of people watching or they might be managing those buildings.

[42:18] Pier: Yes, look, the multi-let managed building scenario is not really a big issue when it comes to identifying responsibility for TR19. Usually, the user of the kitchen is responsible. We have a lot of hotels we take care of; often the restaurants are, of course, franchised, the hotels themselves are franchised. So in that case, if there’s an external company that is working in the kitchen, those people are responsible.

[42:56] Kevin: Because you mentioned about access panels, if I’m leasing a building, am I responsible as the lessor to make sure that the ductwork’s fit for purpose—like there are enough access panels—and then it’s the responsibility, presumably, of the user to clean it? Is that how it works?

[43:16] Pier: Yes, that is technically how it is. In fact, sometimes we encounter the need to help escalate from tenant or user to the owner of the system/owner of the building when it comes to obtaining the permission to install access panels. And usually, the client and the landlord discuss between themselves who is going to take ownership of facing the bill for the installation of the access panels, while usually the entity that faces the bill for the clean is the one using the kitchen.

When it comes to TM44 instead, it’s slightly more complicated than that. The most complex possible scenario is a multi-occupancy office building, okay? The landlord is responsible for units that serve common areas, right? Yeah, and is responsible for all the other units that he can control and that he has maintenance responsibility on. So if the air conditioning system is centralized, it’s the landlord’s responsibility, sure. There are some instances in which you have some smaller offices within a building of this type and they own and operate and maintain their own units. In that case, they have the responsibility for their own air conditioning.

[44:56] Kevin: And they decide, “Yeah, we want an air conditioning unit for our office with lots of computers or something.” Yeah, so in that, they would be responsible.

[45:07] Pier: A little note on that is that if the office is small enough, a company might use a portable unit—that portable unit needs to be discarded, they will not need a TM44. If the office is small enough as well, they might fall below the 12-kilowatt threshold and not qualify for a TM44, so the responsibility lies simply with the landlord in that case.

Outro & Wrap-up

[45:34] Kevin: Sure, I think that’s pretty clear. Now, we’re almost—time’s almost up. So, you’ve been very shy today, I’ve had no comments at all today. They’re just shocked at your brilliance and you’ve made it so clear for everyone, Pier, so that’s brilliant. Yeah, just last chance to ask Pier any questions, so do fire us some questions if you would like. But failing that, thank you so much for watching.

As I said before, if you would like to, there’s a whole load of videos that you can see on the Robinson’s website: Robinson’s Facilities Services. So go to www.robinsonsfs.com/video and you’ll see my lovely face talking to lots of lovely people about similar kind of topics, and a colleague of mine also, Joe, talking about a whole range of other—a whole load of really useful little videos there for you to check out as well.

But look, so we’ve got—looks like we’ve got—don’t think we’ve got any more comments, Pier. So look, I just want to say a big thank you to you. Thank you all for watching, and we’ll see you next time on Robinson’s Facilities Services lunchtime learning webinar. Thanks for watching.

[46:53] Pier: Thank you all, thank you.